Some Info about Community Relations

[Andrew Patrick]

It seems to us that one of the problems in the community right now is that a number of people seem to think we have the right to mandate things to the design team. The fact of the matter is we can only make suggestions based on community feedback—even if those suggestions happen to have been posted as a demand. It is up to the design team to determine what is really best for the game. That is why they are professionals…

You also have to realize things are never as simple as they seem on paper. A lot of the suggestions that are made will improve the game for the poster, but at the expense of ruining it for another. Many of the changes that outspoken members of the community have complained about—soul reaping and party size in HA are the two big ones that come to mind—were made at the request, nay, demand of the loudest members of the community at that time. Therein lies the problem, happy people are playing the game, upset people are posting on the forums. The clearest example for that was the 6v6/8v8 situation in HA.

If you recall, we had a weekend that changed HA to 6v6. The community, in an unprecedented majority, requested that 6v6 remains…or at least the members of the community who, at that time, were posting on the forums came to that consensus. When 8v8 reverted, those who wanted 8v8 returned to the game and, essentially, stopped posting because they had no concerns to mention. When, however, 6v6 came back, the members of the community who were enjoying the 8v8 returned to the forums, while those who wanted 6v6 were in the game playing. After all, while it isn’t a happy truth, the fact of the matter is people are more vocal and more likely to post on the forums when they are upset.

So you have a pendulum. Happy people are playing, upset people are posting. If we do what the upset people suggest and in doing so, make those who were happy upset, then everyone sort of plays musical chairs in the forum/game. People say we do not listen enough, and I would be so bold to say that, if anything, we listen too much. Three months ago everyone was saying we needed to do more, but now the largest complaint, by far, is that we have changed the game so much, it is no longer as fun as it once was to some people. So do you want more change or less change? The answer changes from person to person…

The dev team is in a “damned if we do damned if we don’t” situation because we cannot possibly make the game 100% perfect for 3.5 million individuals with individual tastes, desires, and opinions. Unfortunately, there seem to be some who feel we should blindly listen to them even when the very threads they are posting suggestions or feedback in show the reaction from the community is very much divided. Honestly, if half the people posting in the thread are strongly against an idea, it should be clear there is no “easy answer” since no matter what is decided, it will go against the wishes of some of the community.

I can understand frustration, I can understand concern, I can understand irritation, but I cannot understand the disrespect. It is our job to take your feedback and relay it to the designers and I assure you, we do that. I personally write a 4-8 page community summary containing forum links, quotes, and suggestions and that goes to the designers every week. Summaries also come from other CCs. After that, it is essentially out of the community team's hands. If you are thinking “Well if the design team hears us why aren’t they doing what we say?” I remind you of the pendulum…every decision needs to be carefully assessed. What improves the game for you may ruin it for another so it is never practical or wise to blindly follow whoever happens to be yelling the loudest.

That is why there are professional game designers…that is why their job is so difficult. That is why ours, in general, is often a thankless job. No one can make a game that is exactly suited to every single person, and the people who have the most to say are almost always going to be the ones having the worst experience so a hundred happy players can seem outnumbered by one outspoken unhappy player.

Some things cannot happen based on the game engine, or the amount of time it would take, or countless other reasons. Other things the designers choose not to do because, while it may improve the game for some, it could ruin it for others. That should not make you angry or feel ignored…it should make you feel protected knowing that our design team tries to consider all the sides of something before they leap into decisions. If you are thinking “yeah but the X update ruined my Y” then I beg you to remember that incident next time you are tapping your toe demanding to know what is taking so long on a certain project.

The impatience, the rudeness, the demanding attitudes…they are all counter-productive behaviors. If there has ever been an update that you think there was not enough forethought prior to it going live, do not rush us. If you ever feel like we are not reading the forums enough, do not be rude to us and make reading them more difficult. If you ever feel like we are appeasing one group of people at the expense of another, do not demand things. Have faith in the design team, stop acting like you are a part of it, and let them do their jobs.

Suggest things, yes. Give feedback, yes. But never, ever forget the fact that you are one person amongst millions that play this game and that every one of those millions of players deserves just as much consideration as you do. Even at times when you have the apparent majority on you side on the forums, that is a skewed statistic since (A) Less than ¼ of players in online games generally post on forums and (B) the people with complaints are the ones posting while the people who are perfectly content are in the game, playing it and enjoying it. If we make changes based on what people are posting, chances are someone who wasn’t posting won’t like the change and will take the place of someone who is now content. The only defense from making this game shift from extreme to extreme is for a knowledgeable group of people to gather feedback both on the forums and in-game, and to make educated decisions based on that feedback. That group of people is the design team, and I have full confidence and respect for every member of that team.

Please, keep your grievances in perspective and think outside of the realm of “what is best for me and people who play like me.” Understand this is a game that has a broad range of players and it cannot ever be perfect for everyone. Most importantly, please remember that the members of the dev team are all human beings who deserve respect and common courtesy. Receiving a pay-check does not turn us into your punching bags, and if that is honestly anyone’s philosophy—that if someone is paid they cease to deserve to be treated kindly—I ask you, would you like customers or clients of wherever you may work to treat you disrespectfully? Don’t say we signed up to be treated like crap because we took our jobs…don’t justify immature, presumptuous, or down right anti-social behavior with “they get paid to take my abuse.” I understand you are passionate, but is attacking the people who made the very thing you are passionate about really the best way to act?

I am not saying stop posting. I am not saying stop pointing out things you feel should be improved. I am simply asking you to keep this all in mind whenever you do make a post.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[VitisVinifera]

you are right -- 50% will always not be satisfied...........AS LONG AS YOU KEEP TREATING PVE AND PVP UNDER THE SAME RULES

there is this denial going on among the devs, that what works for pve will work just the same as for pvp, and the same rules should apply for all. But you nerf something to balance things for one side, you throw the other side out of balance. There you have created the 50% unhappy.

Don't blame half the community for their displeasure with the game. It's because you've created the rift.

And you might want to examine Jeff Strain's statement in a recent interview that GW is a service, not a product. Because increasingly, the game is only playable by your terms.

edit: how's Gaile been managing? Her being rubbed thin lately, with her more lately conspicuous absences are interesting.
and edit 2: it was fun playing vs you in the ATS beta testing =)

[sindex]

Lack of a better understanding I disagree that the community is dogging down A-net’s work; you choose to do whatever you want to do. I am sorry but there are formal ways to approach a situation on hand instead of telling us, “The community is full of bad apples so quite down and play the game.”

I know the community has complained and made a whole bunch of suggestions; furthermore I know, you can’t implement every single one. The fact is we have no clue on what your guy’s process is, except for the select few that work for you (or have special tours of your facility). The information that gets back to us is incredibly lacking. Take for instance Hard Mode when did we get to find out about the farming nerf that was going to be put in? When did we learn that the Soul Reaping nerf was coming in? It was all the day of something great that was added to GW, and they were both tacked on. So of course the community was divided.

I still believe the communication factor is poor due to coy information about what it might be and not what it will be.

[lyra_song]

Andrew you just waved a red flag in front of the bull. Some forum posters are beyond rational thoughts and reasoning now.

PvP and PvE will never agree cause both sides hate each other and blame the other for each other's misery. Its like sectarian violence in the middle east or something....

And after they blame each other, they blame Anet.

[defrule]

Remember in Rocky Balboa:

"But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward."

[sixdartbart]

Andrew you are a brave man to post that here.

I think you stated your points very well and I agree with you {especially about how poorly you/Gaile/Anet are treated in the forums} by the all knowing community but them being what they are I will keep [skill]extinguish[/skill] handy for you just in case.

[MSecorsky]

People are going to hate this... the sound of the voice of reason.

Like I said, there's what the community wants and there's what the game needs. Of course... the community can't even agree with what it wants, so let's all take a breath, relax and go have fun while these folks work out what we really need for the best possible gaming experience, shall we?

[DeaconSune]

Personally, I think that you guys do an excellent job of balancing things. And I can really sympathize because I write code for a living, and the fact that so few people truly understand what it takes to change software makes life difficult. I mean, first you have to figure out what you want to change, then come up with ideas on how to change it, then change it, then test the hell out of it, and then implement it. That process takes a hell of a long time. I only have a pool of about 75 people to complain about the work that I'm doing, I can't imagine what it's like to have 3.5 million. I've been playing since the World Preview Event, and I have seen Guild Wars evolve from my favorite MMO to the only one that I play, mainly due to the attention that A-net gives it.

All I really do is PvE, and by many accounts, PvP has severely hobbled the experience. I disagree. All of the changes to skills and mechanics have led to an ever evolving gameplay that keeps me interested each time I go through the story arcs. Almost every weekend there is a special event of some sorts, some are fun, others not so much, some just stink. At least for me. There are people out there that hate the events that I love and vice versa.

So for all the hard work, thanks.

[sindex]

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Andrew you just waved a red flag in front of the bull. Some forum posters are beyond rational thoughts and reasoning now.

PvP and PvE will never agree cause both sides hate each other and blame the other for each other's misery. Its like sectarian violence in the middle east or something....

And after they blame each other, they blame Anet.

Lyra, were you not ticked off about when they cut out the sound for the mini-pets not too long ago? If true then you also wanted them back or else, type of attitude. I was in the same boat as you as well, but you were upset at them. Of course we had no idea that was going to happen, but they did fix it after our complaints. I thank A-net for that still.

[mr_groovy]

Ok With everything in mind that the op stated I would like to get an awnser on this. I posted this question also for Gaile in the "Devs Update" thread but she doesn't seem to want to reply to it.
Due to Lot of botting Lootscaling was introduced. With exceptions of golds, rare materials etc. The official statement was that if people wanted to make money they should trade these items with other players. Now with the update to come, there will be an enforcement that people will only use the trade channel for trades, and don't spam their offer multiple times in a row.
Ok now to my point, People are spamming in the trade and normal chat because if we wanted to use & promote party search for trades it really needs to get an increased string length. As it is people can put limited info of their item in there. Which makes people just spam instead of using it.
So why is it that the party search is so limited and can't be improved for this purpose? It could even have the same mechanics as the template code but then for the items which you want to sell...
Any news on this Andrew? I think this would make most people happy, not only me ^^

[XvArchonvX]

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

That is why ours, in general, is often a thankless job.

While that may be true, I hope it never becomes always. Thank you.

[Diddy bow]

Yea i see where you are going. What really bothers me is why these changes were ever made to begin with. I certainly saw a handful of people complaining about how unfair pve was before loot scaling, in comparision to the people in game and here complaining about how bad loot scaaling is (im one of them send who ever thought of it to a home already =D). I love minor changes and rebalences. But i dont see the need to turn the game on its head. People play guild wars because they like it. I fail to see what such extreme changes (aim too) achive. And i also fail to see that if you dont know peoples in game opinions and you dont change things on what people on fourums say. What do you base these changes on...??

Less than ¼ of players in online games generally post on forums

you should have some kind of ingame vote one time just to see what kind on answers you get , would be fun XD.

[Henchman]

I certainly agree with you Andrew. I myself have a wishlist of changes I'd like to see implemented into the game, but I know that not everyone would agree with them...

And while the forums may be filled with angry demanding whiners- do know this Andrew: The people are complaining because they LIKE the game and they want to make it better (for themselves). If they hated the game they would simply open an "I'm leaving thread", and move on to something else.

So even if you and the development team feel frustration at the ungrateful non-stop complainers, you can feel a bit better knowing that the complaints are coming from fans of the game who enjoy playing it (who are still whiners..).

[Evilsod]

Tbh all i read was 'we've tried, now we're gonna let it rot'.

[fRag_Doll]

Andrew, I agree with pretty much everything you said, but the only thing more pointless than arguing with someone on the internet, is trying to reason with people on the internet.
/ThumbsUp for an excellent post though, it's just sad that the majority of people that read it won't understand your point of view.

[Gawa]

Good post Andrew. I hope you and the other staff can take small measure of reassurance that the majority of GW players really do appreciate all you do.

Sadly lyra_song is right, and as you know yourself, quite a number of the most vocal of this community are proving themselves incapable of mature reasonable discussion; and your words and the words of the rest of us are lost on them.

I am saddened, angered and ready to give up on the attitude of many in this forum and I've only had to try and deal with it for a couple of weeks; i can only imagine what it is like for all of you staff.

[Shendaar]

I agree that a lot of people take it too far(especially those who are just victims of their own incompetence), but when 90%+ of the people posting in a thread are in agreement, there isn't much place left for debates.

This of course brings me back to the upcoming skill balance. When almost every PvPer(and even some PvE players) think it is crap, there is a problem. We're not even talking about a PvP vs PvE situation here, we are talking about handful of skill changes that don't really address any of the current problems.

I am sorry, but TWO months for "We are still monitoring blah blah" is unacceptable.

[GloryFox]

Thank you Andrew Patrick that was a very well thought out and insightful post.

Originally Posted by lyra_song
Andrew you just waved a red flag in front of the bull. Some forum posters are beyond rational thoughts and reasoning now.

PvP and PvE will never agree cause both sides hate each other and blame the other for each other's misery. Its like sectarian violence in the middle east or something....

And after they blame each other, they blame Anet.

However Lyra is correct and the divide between PvE and PvP is getting wider and wider. Either divide PvP and PvE skill descriptions and mechanics or find a happy medium that both can agree upon. BUT whatever you do don't do a CHEAP solution to a complex problem. a.k.a Armor cap

[Nexus Icon]

Andrew, the majority of your post is pointing out how ANet has to consider balance first and foremost; but not everything that the community is requesting actually affects balance.
I refer of course to the much requested, much needed trade improvements.

Improving trade will not affect the game's mechanics.

We know we're not getting an auction house, but there are plenty of other improvements that could be made, and yet all we get is "Stop spamming or we'll ban you, scum".

Addressing this issue will do a lot to build bridges with the PvE community.

Oh, and quit it with the "Guilty until proven innocent" terminology.
Nothing is quite so insulting as being told that the people in control think you're all criminal plebs.

[Firebaall]

I think it's a do or don't do situation.

Interact with the community, and answer questions with out the tap dance side show. Or don't.

It's the half assed, half cooked responses that cause the majority of the grief for the community reps. Be diligent in your responses or don't post. As far as the 1 of millions excuse....that was a poor choice. Each player is 1 of those millions, and you have to start somewhere. No change is going to be made wihout an idea from one person.

Punching bags? Don't hang yourself, then there's no problem.